Curse

Dreamsmith · Apr 26, 2005, 04:43 PM // 16:43

I started this message in response to a post about Anarchy Online in another thread, but it quickly morphed into something really not on topic for that thread, soo... here are my thoughts on why I've never been able to "get into" any MMORPG. (If you're one of those people who calls Guild Wars an MMORPG, insert an implied "traditional" before every occurance of the term MMORPG below.)

The question was, "What MMORPG will you be playing alongside Guild Wars?" Someone had just mentioned playing Anarchy Online.

Quote:

Ugh. I tried Anarchy Online, but I couldn't maintain interest.

It had a really promising start, and reminded me a lot of a certain portion of The Longest Journey, but from the moment the shuttle crashed, it descended into the plotless mindless grind you expect from an MMORPG.

"Could you go kill some bunny rabbits for me? I need their guts for some medicines." Okey dokey... Yeah, they weren't bunny rabbits, but they might as well have been -- they were just harmless creatures on the beach, which for some reason would magically appear out of nowhere without explanation. And there were huge numbers of them, right next to the guy! As least in Morrowind, for example, when you're given a quest to go pick flowers, it's understandable why the person giving it doesn't want to take the time and trouble to do it. In AO is was like getting the pick flowers quest from the person while standing in the middle of a flower garden. "Err, dude, you're standing right next to one. Why don't you just reach over and grab it yourself?" It'd be like Collector Brownlow saying, "I'm collecting rabbits' feet. Bring me some rabbits' feet and I'll give you a belt pouch." while three dozen rabbits hop around at his feet, and as you kill them, others magically appear out of nowhere. "Um..."

Now, take a creature just as harmless, and give it the skin of, say, a River Skale, and you come up with a quest that's no more difficult but feels more important, less trivial. It's simple, basic game design. Why is it that MMORPGs invariably suffer from bad game design? Of course, that would solve the trivialness problem, but you still have the "magically appearing out of nowhere" problem. And what's with the insane population levels for these things? Knight Online had the same problem, you walk outside the city and there are just worms everywhere (which you can't do anything about since they magically appear out of nowhere as fast as you can kill them).

Are there MMORPG's that aren't just too ridiculous to be believeable, even by fantasy-gaming relaxed standards for believability? Where I can start out doing things that seem meaningful? Where there's an actual detectable plot that involves me somehow? Where when I start at one end of a field and kill everything until I get to the other side, when I turn around, I see an empty field rather than a field half-full of monsters? Otherwise, it's questionable why I'm there. Nothing I do in the world makes a difference...

Is there such an MMORPG, that solves this "importance" problem? Any game with a common, persistent world and thousands of players is pretty much required to make sure no individual player really makes a difference in it. I don't see how to get around that problem without jettisoning the whole idea of a common, persistent world, which is the core concept of an MMORPG. The very nature of an MMORPG is antithetical to the kind of game I enjoy, I'm afraid. Unless someone can suggest some MMORPG that somehow solves this problem, my answer to your question will be, "None."

Now, Guild Wars solves this problem by jettisoning the common, persistent world. Two different players can be in Ascalon City, and one sees a beautiful city while another sees a bombed out ruin. Two different teams can be in The Wilds, one crossing a bridge while another is still looking for a vine seed since in their instance, there's no bridge yet. Each and every hero can be the hero that does important tasks central to the plot because each is playing their instance, giving each the importance they'd have in a single player RPG. You don't have to be just one of the crowd.

Furthermore, because different players can see the world dramatically differently, the game can have a meaningful plot that advances only through their efforts, not some overarching events that occur throughout the world for everyone regardless of whether they're involved in it or not. That's not a plot, that's a setting. MMORPGs are like a novel with a wonderful setting but no protagonist or plot. No one can do anything "important" because that would change the world for everyone, ruining everyone else's chances to do it, furthering their own unimportance.

I was curious what other people's thoughts are on this. Is this even a solvable issue, or does the very format of an MMORPG preclude the ability to satisfy that plot issue, with the player himself or herself being an important part of it rather than just a face in the crowd? Is the only way to solve this to jettison the common, persistent world as Guild Wars does? Is there really no way at all to make a common, persistent world game that addresses this? Or am I just not seeing it?

Thoughts?

DarkWasp · Apr 26, 2005, 05:10 PM // 17:10

That was a pretty good read. NCsoft wrote something like that, or was it ArenaNet?

Sekkira · Apr 26, 2005, 06:24 PM // 18:24

I agree wholly with your post. I don't enjoy MMORPG's because of their plot (or lack therof), the plot is mediocre to say the least, everyone really is just a face in the crowd.

But I play MMORPG's for other reasons. Sometimes I enjoy the grind to gain levels, to make my character more powerful, just because I can. I enjoy the non instanced worlds that are crowded and have spawn camping, because that enduces the OD fun that ensues when a few people are waiting for that one spawn (it gets rediculous if the spawning time is in hours). The thrill of going against bosses that are much more powerful then you and grabbing a few people around the area to help you kill it because getting what it drops isn't important anymore, it's staying alive. Others aggroing bosses more powerful then they are, then running away, grabbing a trail of monsters as they run, then catch this train onto you, transferring the thrill of trying to stay alive again at any cost.

These kind of things GW doesn't have, which is a plus as well as a minus. GW has the thrill of everyone being on a completely level playing field and you have to rely entirely on your wits and skills to get through alive. When you're teamed up for a mission, going through and exploring the breathtaking scenery while encountering monsters that require about as much tactical skill. Noone being there to steal your kills but everyone you need to help each other out. On top of everything, the greatest PvP game of all time, Capture. The. Flag.

GW and other MMORPG's have different layouts, offering positives and negatives, but GW will never be a traditional MMORPG, it wont bring the joys involved in those, all the same, traditionall MMORPG's wont bring the joys in GW. They're both different and fun in their own ways, but to each his own. For me, it's a matter of what mood I'm in.

Rage · Apr 26, 2005, 09:28 PM // 21:28

I like mmos but I lost the will for long grinds after grinding 30 professions to unlock a jedi on swg.

Played wow a bit but lost interest

Dreamsmith · Apr 26, 2005, 11:27 PM // 23:27

You know, I really don't mind long grinds as long as there's something important to do along the way and there's a point to it in the end. I just can't level for the sake of leveling. Incrementing counters, adding to numbers, this just doesn't excite me...

Devil's Dictionary · Apr 27, 2005, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Great post, Dreamsmith: in fact, this is what initially got me interested in Guild Wars.
Although I am sick and tired of those "you are the chosen one of our village/county/city/state/country/planet/world/dimention/universe/banana plantation", I believe that "you are nothing but one out of a billion players on this server" approach to players is simply rude. In single-player RPGs you are the Hero, the Savior, the Last Hope. In MMO games you are just a player, no more no less. I suppose this is one of the reasons why City of Heroes was such a fresh breeze: in CoH you are a Hero, one out of a million, but still a being with superpowers who is needed to protect innocent civilians and avert wicked plots.
In Guild Wars, you feel somewhat involved in the world arround you as it changes. Ascalon gets burned to brimstone and ruins. Prince Rurik leads his supporters to safety through the dangerous mountains... You actually contribute to the story and you feel as you have acheived something thanks to the cinematics.